In this KGNU interview, pianist and composer Caili O’Doherty discussed her new album Bluer Than Blue: A Tribute to Lil Harden Armstrong. She shared how her discovery of Lil’s music during graduate school at Queens College inspired the project and led her to highlight Harden’s overlooked contributions as a pianist, composer, and bandleader. O’Doherty reflected on Lil’s role alongside Louis Armstrong, her groundbreaking compositions like Struttin’ with Some Barbecue and Just for a Thrill, and her influence on later genres and artists. She also spoke about her own jazz journey, musical influences, and passion for giving voice to women in jazz history. (Interview: 8/26/25)
Joanne Cole: Hey Caili, welcome to KGNU.
Caili O’Doherty: Hi! Thank you so much for having me.
Joanne Cole: Oh, I’m so excited. Thank you for your patience with me and for the wonderful work you do. Your newest CD is titled Bluer Than Blue. Would you call it a tribute or—
Caili O’Doherty: A celebration—celebrating Lil Harden Armstrong.
Joanne Cole: Caili, tell us about yourself and how you came to play music.
Caili O’Doherty: My name is Caili O’Doherty. I’m originally from Portland, Oregon, but I’ve been living in the New York City area for the past twelve years. I grew up playing classical piano starting at age five. I began playing jazz when I was eleven and immediately fell in love with it. I’ve always wanted to have my own band, to compose, and to arrange music.
This project came about when I was in grad school at Queens College, the Aaron Copland School of Music. I took a class on the history of Louis Armstrong, and Queens College houses the Louis Armstrong Archives. They have his trumpet, many of his original charts, and sheet music that people haven’t seen before. I went digging there, and that’s where Lil Harden’s name came up repeatedly. I had heard of her before but didn’t know much beyond her association with Armstrong.
That’s where my love for this project began. Through that class, I did a deep dive into her music and completely fell in love with it.
Joanne Cole: I was so thrilled to see that CD, because sometimes you feel like you’re on an island—that nobody else knows about Lil Harden. Before this interview, I brushed up on her by reading Wikipedia, and I thought: Hollywood should really tell this story! I’m so glad you’ve done this, Caili.
Your forte is jazz, though, right? After being trained classically?
Caili O’Doherty: Yes.
Joanne Cole: You have several releases where you play pretty much straight-ahead jazz. I haven’t heard them all—this is the first of your work I’ve listened to—but I was so excited to hear this. It’s beautiful.
For those who don’t know Lil Harden, can you give us a little history about her and her relationship with Louis Armstrong?
Caili O’Doherty: Lil was from Memphis, Tennessee, and grew up in a musical household, playing mainly religious music. She moved to Chicago with her parents around the end of high school, beginning of college. She went to Fisk University and started playing with King Oliver, even before Louis Armstrong.
She played with many musicians in Chicago. King Oliver eventually sent for Armstrong to come up from New Orleans, and that’s how they met. Lil played with him in the Hot Five group. She was a very proficient classical pianist, an excellent sight reader, and worked professionally in Chicago as a music demonstrator in a sheet music store.
Joanne Cole: What is a sight reader?
Caili O’Doherty: Back in the day, when recordings weren’t available, sheet music stores would hire pianists to “sight-read.” If a customer wanted to hear what a piece sounded like, the pianist would play it directly from the sheet music. Lil worked in that role, which shows how highly skilled she was.
She also wrote out many of Armstrong’s charts and composed several tunes that became famous with the Hot Five, like Struttin’ with Some Barbecue and Two Deuces. Later in her career, her songs were recorded by other genres. For instance, her tune Brown Gal was reworked by a doo-wop group into Bad Boy. Aretha Franklin and Ray Charles also covered her composition Just for a Thrill.
She was a groundbreaking composer, musician, and bandleader—even leading her own all-woman band. She inspires me deeply, especially considering how she navigated the music world at that time.
Joanne Cole: It was unusual for a woman to have that kind of control. For our listeners, we often play the golden era of jazz on the Roots of Jazz show—the migration of African Americans out of the South into Chicago, New York, and California. Armstrong was central, but Lil was right there with him in the Hot Five.
Our guest is Caili O’Doherty—C-A-I-L-I O-D-O-H-E-R-T-Y. Thank you for committing to this project and shining a light on Lil Harden. Struttin’ with Some Barbecue is probably the tune I know best, since I play a lot of blues.
What was something you didn’t see coming when you started this project?
Caili O’Doherty: I didn’t expect her compositions to be so powerful. Before starting, I didn’t know much of her music. But through this project, I discovered how distinct her voice was. She had such a characteristic sound, and her writing influenced the evolution of jazz more than most people realize.
As a composer myself, I connected with her music deeply. I often wonder what it would have been like if she had been more supported as a pianist. Critics compared her unfavorably to Earl “Fatha” Hines in Armstrong’s group, but I think that limited the opportunities for her to shine. If women had been more valued in music then, perhaps we’d have heard more of her as a soloist.
Joanne Cole: Indeed. Thank you, Caili. I’m going to let you go but play some Lil Harden for our listeners, as well as one more cut of you performing Struttin’ with Some Barbecue. People can find you online at Caili O’Doherty, and they can buy Bluer Than Blue wherever they purchase music. I hope you come out to Colorado so we can hear you live.
Who are your piano influences?
Caili O’Doherty: The pianist who first got me into jazz was Oscar Peterson. I’m heavily influenced by Geri Allen, Mary Lou Williams, Thelonious Monk, and Herbie Hancock. I also admire many contemporary pianists like Gerald Clayton and Sullivan Fortner. Honestly, I draw influence from so many musicians—pianists and players of other instruments too.
Joanne Cole: Your recording is excellent, and you’ve gathered wonderfully skilled musicians. Thank you again, Caili, for joining us. The CD is Bluer Than Blue: A Tribute to Lil Harden Armstrong.
Caili O’Doherty: Thank you so much, Joanne. I hope to make it to Colorado soon.
Joanne Cole: All right, let’s play some Lil Harden for our listeners.
Caili O’Doherty: Thank you.
Joanne Cole: Bye-bye.
Joanne Cole: Hey Caili, welcome to KGNU.
Caili O’Doherty: Hi! Thank you so much for having me.
Joanne Cole: Oh, I’m so excited. Thank you for your patience with me and for the wonderful work you do. Your newest CD is titled Bluer Than Blue. Would you call it a tribute or—
Caili O’Doherty: A celebration—celebrating Lil Harden Armstrong.
Joanne Cole: Caili, tell us about yourself and how you came to play music.
Caili O’Doherty: My name is Caili O’Doherty. I’m originally from Portland, Oregon, but I’ve been living in the New York City area for the past twelve years. I grew up playing classical piano starting at age five. I began playing jazz when I was eleven and immediately fell in love with it. I’ve always wanted to have my own band, to compose, and to arrange music.
This project came about when I was in grad school at Queens College, the Aaron Copland School of Music. I took a class on the history of Louis Armstrong, and Queens College houses the Louis Armstrong Archives. They have his trumpet, many of his original charts, and sheet music that people haven’t seen before. I went digging there, and that’s where Lil Harden’s name came up repeatedly. I had heard of her before but didn’t know much beyond her association with Armstrong.
That’s where my love for this project began. Through that class, I did a deep dive into her music and completely fell in love with it.
Joanne Cole: I was so thrilled to see that CD, because sometimes you feel like you’re on an island—that nobody else knows about Lil Harden. Before this interview, I brushed up on her by reading Wikipedia, and I thought: Hollywood should really tell this story! I’m so glad you’ve done this, Caili.
Your forte is jazz, though, right? After being trained classically?
Caili O’Doherty: Yes.
Joanne Cole: You have several releases where you play pretty much straight-ahead jazz. I haven’t heard them all—this is the first of your work I’ve listened to—but I was so excited to hear this. It’s beautiful.
For those who don’t know Lil Harden, can you give us a little history about her and her relationship with Louis Armstrong?
Caili O’Doherty: Lil was from Memphis, Tennessee, and grew up in a musical household, playing mainly religious music. She moved to Chicago with her parents around the end of high school, beginning of college. She went to Fisk University and started playing with King Oliver, even before Louis Armstrong.
She played with many musicians in Chicago. King Oliver eventually sent for Armstrong to come up from New Orleans, and that’s how they met. Lil played with him in the Hot Five group. She was a very proficient classical pianist, an excellent sight reader, and worked professionally in Chicago as a music demonstrator in a sheet music store.
Joanne Cole: What is a sight reader?
Caili O’Doherty: Back in the day, when recordings weren’t available, sheet music stores would hire pianists to “sight-read.” If a customer wanted to hear what a piece sounded like, the pianist would play it directly from the sheet music. Lil worked in that role, which shows how highly skilled she was.
She also wrote out many of Armstrong’s charts and composed several tunes that became famous with the Hot Five, like Struttin’ with Some Barbecue and Two Deuces. Later in her career, her songs were recorded by other genres. For instance, her tune Brown Gal was reworked by a doo-wop group into Bad Boy. Aretha Franklin and Ray Charles also covered her composition Just for a Thrill.
She was a groundbreaking composer, musician, and bandleader—even leading her own all-woman band. She inspires me deeply, especially considering how she navigated the music world at that time.
Joanne Cole: It was unusual for a woman to have that kind of control. For our listeners, we often play the golden era of jazz on the Roots of Jazz show—the migration of African Americans out of the South into Chicago, New York, and California. Armstrong was central, but Lil was right there with him in the Hot Five.
Our guest is Caili O’Doherty—C-A-I-L-I O-D-O-H-E-R-T-Y. Thank you for committing to this project and shining a light on Lil Harden. Struttin’ with Some Barbecue is probably the tune I know best, since I play a lot of blues.
What was something you didn’t see coming when you started this project?
Caili O’Doherty: I didn’t expect her compositions to be so powerful. Before starting, I didn’t know much of her music. But through this project, I discovered how distinct her voice was. She had such a characteristic sound, and her writing influenced the evolution of jazz more than most people realize.
As a composer myself, I connected with her music deeply. I often wonder what it would have been like if she had been more supported as a pianist. Critics compared her unfavorably to Earl “Fatha” Hines in Armstrong’s group, but I think that limited the opportunities for her to shine. If women had been more valued in music then, perhaps we’d have heard more of her as a soloist.
Joanne Cole: Indeed. Thank you, Caili. I’m going to let you go but play some Lil Harden for our listeners, as well as one more cut of you performing Struttin’ with Some Barbecue. People can find you online at Caili O’Doherty, and they can buy Bluer Than Blue wherever they purchase music. I hope you come out to Colorado so we can hear you live.
Who are your piano influences?
Caili O’Doherty: The pianist who first got me into jazz was Oscar Peterson. I’m heavily influenced by Geri Allen, Mary Lou Williams, Thelonious Monk, and Herbie Hancock. I also admire many contemporary pianists like Gerald Clayton and Sullivan Fortner. Honestly, I draw influence from so many musicians—pianists and players of other instruments too.
Joanne Cole: Your recording is excellent, and you’ve gathered wonderfully skilled musicians. Thank you again, Caili, for joining us. The CD is Bluer Than Blue: A Tribute to Lil Harden Armstrong.
Caili O’Doherty: Thank you so much, Joanne. I hope to make it to Colorado soon.
Joanne Cole: All right, let’s play some Lil Harden for our listeners.
Caili O’Doherty: Thank you.
Joanne Cole: Bye-bye.
