Frank Dagnillo interviews local author Zack Kopp about his new book Rare but Serious, which includes an interview with Jamie Cassady, daughter of Beat Generation icon Neal Cassady. Kopp discusses Neal’s influence on Jack Kerouac’s spontaneous writing style and his pivotal role in both the Beat and hippie movements. They explore Neal’s time in Denver, his relationships with Carolyn Cassady, Ken Kesey, and the Merry Pranksters, and his mythic status as the driver of the Further bus. Kopp shares updates on efforts to republish and expand works by and about Neal and his family, and reflects on Denver’s deep connections to Beat history. He also encourages renewed interest in countercultural ideals and invites listeners to explore his websites for more of his work. (Interview: 6/17/25)
Frank Dagnillo: Listeners know that I’m here with author Zack Kopp. Am I saying your name right, Zack?
Zack Kopp: Yes, you are, Frank.
Frank Dagnillo: Great. Thanks for having me. We’re gonna be touching on a few subjects here, which are jazz-adjacent. Zack is a local writer. He centers, to my knowledge, on counterculture and is very knowledgeable about the Beat scene in Denver history. He can also correct me on any of that if I’m wrong. So, Zack?
Zack Kopp: Yes, sir.
Frank Dagnillo: Tell me what’s going on.
Zack Kopp: I have just written a book that features an interview with Jamie Cassidy. The title is Rare but Serious. Jamie Cassidy is the daughter of Neal Cassidy, who was one of the main figures in the Beat Generation—a preeminent figure in countercultural history.
Neal spent most of his youth and his senior years in Denver. When Larimer Street was a skid row, his father was a wino. He spent about half of his childhood in flop houses with his father, the other half in a slightly higher-class apartment called the Snowden with his mother. He was the guy who inspired Kerouac to write spontaneously.
By way of a letter he sent to him in 1950, Neal inspired Kerouac to do the whole spontaneous prose thing. After the Beat Generation died out, author Ken Kesey sought out Neal and made him the driver of the psychedelically painted bus Further. They went on a road trip across the country.
Frank Dagnillo: Can you let our listeners know who Neal and Carolyn Cassidy were, and who Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters were?
Zack Kopp: Yeah. So, Neal—I told you about. Carolyn was his wife, and she graduated from Denver University with a degree in theater arts and set design in 1947. Ken Kesey is the guy who wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Sometimes a Great Notion, Demon Box, and other novels.
Neal showed up at his house in Palo Alto and won everyone over with his charm and spontaneous rap. He was famous as Dean Moriarty from On the Road. Ken Kesey was planning this acid test and cross-country road trip, and he thought Neal would be the perfect driver.
Frank Dagnillo: And was he? I guess On the Road depicted him as a very talented driver.
Zack Kopp: By the time Neal went off with the Pranksters, he was in California, where he married Carolyn, fathered three children with her, and really tried to be a normal breadwinning American father—but couldn’t pull it off. After the marriage with Carolyn fell apart, he went off with the Pranksters.
He showed a remarkable knack for talking his way out of traffic tickets, but he was already on the decline at this point. You can see film footage of him rapping spontaneously as he drives along, and it really isn’t very coherent. It doesn’t give you a joyful feeling, but that’s part of his mythos. He certainly was the best driver to take the Beats into the future and become hippies.
Frank Dagnillo: Driving the Merry Pranksters around in the van. So what’s the jazz connection here?
Zack Kopp: Jack Kerouac was a big jazz fan even before he met Neal. After reading this letter from Neal—now referred to as the Joan Anderson letter—he began to write spontaneously, so blown away by this letter, the greatest piece of literature he’d ever read.
He devised a writing style where he would write in the moment, spontaneous as in the form of jazz. Because he was inspired by Neal in development of this form, it’s a lot like riffing on someone else’s riff, which is a jazz hook kind of thing.
Frank Dagnillo: Very stream of consciousness.
Zack Kopp: But more like inspired improvisation. Like Charlie Parker blows a solo—he’s not just seeing what he can do. He’s got a feeling in his heart that he’s trying to express. So Kerouac would be writing about his own life—that would be his motive—and then the spontaneity would be the impulse that he approached it with.
Frank Dagnillo: So that was the impetus for his writing style.
Zack Kopp: The letter that he received from Neal. And I think just Neal’s general extroverted nature. Because Neal, when he first met him, had taken a road trip to Columbia where Kerouac and Ginsberg were students. He wanted them to teach him how to write. He just kind of burst into this party with all these people who had these interior worlds full of excitement, but were just very staid, calm, dedicated, studious people.
Neal burst into this party and started filling everyone’s drinks, emptying ashtrays, putting their coats in a certain place—just blew away these Columbia students with how extroverted and animated he was. I kind of have the impression of Neal as a guy who was kidnapped by these well-meaning literateurs. He was so inspirational to them that they made him into a hero and the driver of the bus and the road trip.
He kind of burned himself out chasing that admiration, trying to live up to it.
Frank Dagnillo: What do you got going on? I know you’ve talked about your friendship with his daughter.
Zack Kopp: Yes. I just got back from a road trip where I saw Jamie and her husband, Randy Rato. They are trying to reclaim some publishing rights and regain lost royalties.
They’ve also got revised, expanded editions of all these books that they’re gonna bring out—like Off the Road, the book by Carolyn about Neal’s infidelities and being on the receiving end of his spontaneity; Neal’s collected letters; his Grace Beats Karma: Letters Home from San Quentin; and even The First Third is up for consideration.
Frank Dagnillo: Wow. There’s a wealth of stuff there.
Zack Kopp: Yeah, definitely. I’m inspired to revive the interest in Neal Cassidy as a countercultural figure because there doesn’t seem to be a comparable figure in today’s popularity. I’d like to bring back interest in the Beats and interest people in the idea of spontaneity and countercultural freedom, self-liberation.
Frank Dagnillo: We’re overdue for another countercultural movement.
Zack Kopp: Unless it’s always been here with us, and it’s just changing shape all the time. Podcasting might be a counterculture now.
Frank Dagnillo: So has there been any luck on the publishing front?
Zack Kopp: We were in negotiation with one publisher. I’m not sure where it stands at this point. I’ve got others in mind. If anyone has an idea, please refer your suggestions to me at [email protected].
Frank Dagnillo: Anything else you want to tell our listeners?
Zack Kopp: Well, I want to say that Denver has a lot of connection to the Beat Generation. Neal’s son, Robert Hyatt, lives in Va. He’s got a site—Robert Hyatt Art—very talented sculptor and painter. Heather Dalton, who used to work at KBDI for years, she’s the one who got me the Denver Beat Scene deal in 2015.
Ed White’s son—Ed White was another Columbia student, friend of Kerouac, lifelong pen pal of Kerouac—his son Mark Sink lives in Denver, a very talented artist. And who am I forgetting? Oh, there’s probably more.
There used to be a Neal Cassidy birthday bash for more than 20 years at the Mercury Cafe. It was purchased and renamed, and they don’t do that anymore. But there’s a gelato shop opening at 2258 Champa Street, which used to be the site of Zas Barber Shop, where Neal Sr. worked off and on. There may be a birthday bash held on Neal’s 100th birthday, February 8th, 2026, at Cassidy’s Gelato Shop. But that’s just a prospect, not a confirmed actuality.
Frank Dagnillo: Anything you want to tell the listeners about yourself or what you’ve been working on?
Zack Kopp: I’ve got a new book called Rare but Serious. It’s a collection of interviews, articles, and essays. And I’ve got a lot of other books ready to come out, but I’m just kind of dealing with the aftermath of tax season and getting my bearings back.
Frank Dagnillo: Do you have a website or anything?
Zack Kopp: Yes. Check out www.rarebutsirius.com for information about the new book, and www.campelasticity.com for new articles, interviews, essays, and pieces of fiction.
Frank Dagnillo: Zack, anything you’d like to close on?
Zack Kopp: No, I think this is great, Frank, and thank you so much for having me. I hope the rest of the show goes very well.
Frank Dagnillo: All right, listeners, we’re gonna get back to the music. This is “IDM Six” by Anna Webber.
