In this KGNU interview, folk music icon Cris Williamson reflects on the 50th anniversary of The Changer and the Changed and her show at Swallow Hill. She discusses the album’s lasting impact, the founding of Olivia Records, and the challenges and triumphs of touring in the early days. With warmth and insight, Williamson speaks to the enduring power of music as a force for personal and social change. (Interview: 5/9/25)
Meredith Carson: KGNU 1390 Denver. And we have Cris Williamson joining us this morning—a pioneer of women’s music. Dare I say, the godmother of women’s music? I mean… of “Williamson” music, we could call it. So, Cris, you have a concert coming up at Swallow Hill?
Cris Williamson: I do! To celebrate the 50th anniversary of my seminal record Changer and the Changed.
Meredith Carson: I can’t quite get my head around it being the 50th anniversary.
Cris Williamson: Well, you’re telling me! But I’m still able to get my arms around it, which is good. That’s what I’m going to carry into the show—returning to the original way I did Changer, which was just by myself. And then, when we recorded it, I listened to it over a weekend and thought I wanted to add some other instrumentation. But before that, I had just done it the way I always had—carrying it myself.
Yeah, so I’m still of that mindset—to be self-sufficient in that way. So yeah, the first set will be a mix of songs from the last three albums: Motherland, Harbor Street, and Ravens and the Roses. I’m doing songs from those three. Then the second set will be Changer from top to bottom.
Meredith Carson: Fabulous. Ravens and the Roses is the newest release, right?
Cris Williamson: It is, yeah.
Meredith Carson: Tell us a little bit about it—maybe compare and contrast it with your work from 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Well, the songs come quicker, and they’re well-shaped. I know how to do it. The patterns reflect the world in which we’re living. For example, “Broken Idaho” is about a woman who finds herself pregnant and unable to get an abortion. So she’s got to be on the run. It’s very Margaret Atwood.
Meredith Carson: Ay—very reflective of these times.
Cris Williamson: If you’re not mirroring that, then what kind of artist would you be? Because it’s so jagged everywhere, and people are feeling so nervous about what’s going to happen. Nobody really knows. But what we do know is moment to moment—because that’s honestly how life unfolds. It’s not so far into the future that we can even make a plan. It’s kind of a joke to make a plan these days. But we try. For example, I’m planning on being in Denver that evening. You know, we pray all goes well and I’m able to be there.
I mean, we just lost Jill Bull, and those of us who knew and loved her so much are in shock. We are in shock about it.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely. It was so sudden and so terrible—completely unforeseen.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. She was set to be at Swallow Hill the next night. They had a get-together, and people came and talked about her. She had a long history in Denver—just as I do.
Meredith Carson: I know.
Cris Williamson: We were new friends, she and I. But she was so dear. I just loved her. Instantly felt like I’d known her all my life. So clever and kind. That’s really affected me. As I move forward in these days, I’m thinking—how lucky am I? I’m still here.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: Even to talk about 50 years ago—it’s like a blink of an eye to me.
Meredith Carson: Doesn’t it feel that way? Where does it go?
Cris Williamson: Yeah, no—it always does. Time is so fleeting and fast. The older you get, the faster it goes. I think that’s because we’re actually present to witness it. We’re not dreaming of the future—we’re in it. So welcome to the future as it is. It’s every day, unfolding.
Meredith Carson: It really is. And don’t you feel—I mean, I’m about your age—and I feel like I’m exactly the same person I was 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Yes.
Meredith Carson: I mean, I hope I’ve learned a few things and smoothed a few rough edges—of which there were, and still are, plenty. But don’t you just feel like it’s the blink of an eye? Because we’re still so much our essential selves.
Cris Williamson: That’s exactly right. And the essence of who we are—if you’re a musician, you embed that. You carry that. I teach songwriting, and what I teach is: it’s got to come from the personal, but it’s also got to approach the universal. Like, how would this be useful in the world? It’s not enough to just say, “I’m so sad.” But if you are sad about the world and its sorrows—about unnecessary wars, made by unnecessary people with hearts cold as ice—well, ice is a good thing, but cold hearts are not.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: To crack that terrible coldness—I try with everything I am to send love into that cold place. Which will never hear me. But nonetheless, I send it.
Meredith Carson: You will not be refused. I love that. That’s characterized your career from the absolute beginning. With Changer and the Changed—there hadn’t been anything like that record before. Nor had there been anything like Olivia Records. Nor had there been anyone like Cris Williamson.
Cris Williamson: No.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: We felt how powerful that was. We were making something like food and medicine. Women would go—
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: —and we’d say, “Well, we’d love to bring it to you.” We just had albums. Then we tried to take that on the road. There were no production companies. You had to make them, because there weren’t any. The men didn’t have a clue about what we were doing, because we made an alternative. We knocked on doors, but what they offered wasn’t what we wanted. We had what they wanted—they just didn’t know it. They didn’t have consciousness. So we took our consciousness and made an alternative world—with festivals and more. And still, there are people who do not know about Changer. That’s okay—because there’s a lot of beauty in the world that people don’t know about either. I’m in very good company.
Meredith Carson: That’s the great unknown. You and Mars. People don’t know Mars, either—and you’re in the same category.
Cris Williamson: You may think you do. And it’s not to be conquered—it’s to be visited, perhaps. Admired.
Meredith Carson: Yeah. Let’s keep in mind—50 years. That was 1975, people!
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: I would bet half the people listening to us this morning weren’t even born yet.
Cris Williamson: And that’s okay.
Meredith Carson: Because this is still so relevant.
Cris Williamson: We kicked down some doors, man.
Meredith Carson: You—
Cris Williamson: —kicked them down big time. Because I didn’t see them. I said, “It’s done.” We made an album, made a company, made distributors, made production companies, child care, opened it up to the Deaf community. So many beautiful things people hadn’t done before—because they needed doing. And we did it.
And largely—a lesbian crew all the way down the line. You know, when in doubt, hand the tool to a lesbian. She’ll get it done. Yeah, it’s just true. When you live outside of things, and someone finally kicks down that door and says, “Come in—you’re absolutely welcome,” that’s what we did.
Changer was in everybody’s home. First thing on the stack of albums on the floor. So if a woman—or a man—came into that house and saw that album, they knew they were in a friendly household.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: And that they were welcome there. As I do these tunes, I think—“Wow. Who wrote these things?”
Meredith Carson: Who was that brave person?
Cris Williamson: She lived. I was beyond myself in a way—which you kind of have to be. If you’re going to grow into it, you’ve got to send yourself out like a mission to Mars. So by the time you get there, you can actually embody the things. It still has power, and deep compassion, and everything we need for now.
Meredith Carson: Just to remind folks—Olivia Records, the business Cris is talking about, was the first woman-owned, woman-focused record company, run mostly by women. Her music has reflected that sensibility for 50 years. You’re still at it. It’s such a great privilege to get to talk to you.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: And to have you here, doing this—because it was a big deal in Boulder. There was a huge community here that welcomed you with open arms, and still does.
Cris Williamson: That’s right. And I’m so grateful.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, we all are. I wanted to ask—when you were talking about taking this on the road—what a monumental thing that was. Would you tell us about the first concert you did when you took Changer on tour?
Cris Williamson: I don’t remember the very first one. We did quite a few in L.A.
Meredith Carson: But for the out-of-town people?
Cris Williamson: We assembled players and traveled in two vans. Drove all night sometimes to get there. Cross-country. There’d be some local production company—like Tomato Productions in St. Louis. We’d pretty much be housed in people’s homes.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, for sure.
Cris Williamson: And they’d want us to sit down for dinner. We’d say, “We just can’t. We have to work.” If they could bring dinner to work, we’d try to grab a bite during setup. Then drive again after the show. It was merciless. But for two hours on stage—you could make something spectacular.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: People would be dizzy with it. You had to haul albums, T-shirts, heavy stuff. Now it can all go through the ether.
Meredith Carson: Exactly. No big boxes.
Cris Williamson: That part is great. But you never got to rest. I was 27, though—I had legs. People said I seemed grumpy. I thought, “You have no idea.” Driving all day, bad food, bad coffee…
Meredith Carson: Nowhere good—not in our country!
Cris Williamson: No. But you had what you had. You did what you could. We were the only carriers of it. We didn’t get airplay. Now—thanks to you, and stations like KGNU, which are under siege—
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: —because you tell the unvarnished truth. And they want to toss out everyone who doesn’t agree. Margaret Atwood couldn’t have been more right.
Meredith Carson: It’s terrifying how right on she’s been.
Cris Williamson: But she gave us a blueprint.
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: There’s a line in a song I wrote—“Black Sin,” about Virginia Woolf. It says: “Disaster films are primers now / for real things that are to come.” When we were doing this, there was no how to. We built the airplane as we were flying it. Unbelievable. But we had imagination and true belief in what we were doing. And necessity is the mother of invention.
We invented something very beautiful. I didn’t do it alone. I had the idea. Everyone else became the record company. I never really joined the record company—I just recorded for them.
Meredith Carson: Uh-huh.
Cris Williamson: I didn’t want to be it.
Meredith Carson: You just wanted to be a musician.
Cris Williamson: Yes. I wanted to be seen as a musician. And I’ve been lucky enough for that to be true. Still is. So I’m happy to come back to Denver—one of my great homes. I was there from ’65 to ’69, studying at the University of Denver. I was in a rock and roll band and also playing solo in clubs like The Embers.
Meredith Carson: What was the name of the rock band?
Cris Williamson: Oh, The Crystal Palace Guard. Six guys and me. So fun. We were a cover band. Hundred bucks a gig for six people.
Meredith Carson: Let’s not go back.
Cris Williamson: So fun, though. We had the birth of rock and roll, great folk music—a great time to be a musician.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely.
Cris Williamson: People wanted to hear what we were doing.
Meredith Carson: Yep. But it was hard work.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. And I tell young artists—they expect to step on stage and have a big audience.
Meredith Carson: The influencers will make it happen, they think.
Cris Williamson: But it can be taken away anytime. Someone else can say so. You have to know you’ve done the work. I was waitressing, cleaning houses—in Denver. I knew how to work.
Meredith Carson: You had to work to make the work happen.
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: Cris, we are so looking forward to this show at Swallow Hill on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: Save some energy for us—and congratulations. 50 dang years!
Cris Williamson: 50 dang years, girlfriend. Still alive. 50 years.
Meredith Carson: We’ll see you soon. I’m about to give away a pair of tickets to that concert, but I want to let you go first. We’re so delighted you’re coming.
Cris Williamson: Thank you for your time, and for what you do—for the work you do. Thank you for this great station.
Meredith Carson: You are so very, very welcome. We’ll see you on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thanks, Meredith.
Meredith Carson: KGNU 1390 Denver. And we have Cris Williamson joining us this morning—a pioneer of women’s music. Dare I say, the godmother of women’s music? I mean… of “Williamson” music, we could call it. So, Cris, you have a concert coming up at Swallow Hill?
Cris Williamson: I do! To celebrate the 50th anniversary of my seminal record Changer and the Changed.
Meredith Carson: I can’t quite get my head around it being the 50th anniversary.
Cris Williamson: Well, you’re telling me! But I’m still able to get my arms around it, which is good. That’s what I’m going to carry into the show—returning to the original way I did Changer, which was just by myself. And then, when we recorded it, I listened to it over a weekend and thought I wanted to add some other instrumentation. But before that, I had just done it the way I always had—carrying it myself.
Yeah, so I’m still of that mindset—to be self-sufficient in that way. So yeah, the first set will be a mix of songs from the last three albums: Motherland, Harbor Street, and Ravens and the Roses. I’m doing songs from those three. Then the second set will be Changer from top to bottom.
Meredith Carson: Fabulous. Ravens and the Roses is the newest release, right?
Cris Williamson: It is, yeah.
Meredith Carson: Tell us a little bit about it—maybe compare and contrast it with your work from 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Well, the songs come quicker, and they’re well-shaped. I know how to do it. The patterns reflect the world in which we’re living. For example, “Broken Idaho” is about a woman who finds herself pregnant and unable to get an abortion. So she’s got to be on the run. It’s very Margaret Atwood.
Meredith Carson: Ay—very reflective of these times.
Cris Williamson: If you’re not mirroring that, then what kind of artist would you be? Because it’s so jagged everywhere, and people are feeling so nervous about what’s going to happen. Nobody really knows. But what we do know is moment to moment—because that’s honestly how life unfolds. It’s not so far into the future that we can even make a plan. It’s kind of a joke to make a plan these days. But we try. For example, I’m planning on being in Denver that evening. You know, we pray all goes well and I’m able to be there.
I mean, we just lost Jill Bull, and those of us who knew and loved her so much are in shock. We are in shock about it.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely. It was so sudden and so terrible—completely unforeseen.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. She was set to be at Swallow Hill the next night. They had a get-together, and people came and talked about her. She had a long history in Denver—just as I do.
Meredith Carson: I know.
Cris Williamson: We were new friends, she and I. But she was so dear. I just loved her. Instantly felt like I’d known her all my life. So clever and kind. That’s really affected me. As I move forward in these days, I’m thinking—how lucky am I? I’m still here.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: Even to talk about 50 years ago—it’s like a blink of an eye to me.
Meredith Carson: Doesn’t it feel that way? Where does it go?
Cris Williamson: Yeah, no—it always does. Time is so fleeting and fast. The older you get, the faster it goes. I think that’s because we’re actually present to witness it. We’re not dreaming of the future—we’re in it. So welcome to the future as it is. It’s every day, unfolding.
Meredith Carson: It really is. And don’t you feel—I mean, I’m about your age—and I feel like I’m exactly the same person I was 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Yes.
Meredith Carson: I mean, I hope I’ve learned a few things and smoothed a few rough edges—of which there were, and still are, plenty. But don’t you just feel like it’s the blink of an eye? Because we’re still so much our essential selves.
Cris Williamson: That’s exactly right. And the essence of who we are—if you’re a musician, you embed that. You carry that. I teach songwriting, and what I teach is: it’s got to come from the personal, but it’s also got to approach the universal. Like, how would this be useful in the world? It’s not enough to just say, “I’m so sad.” But if you are sad about the world and its sorrows—about unnecessary wars, made by unnecessary people with hearts cold as ice—well, ice is a good thing, but cold hearts are not.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: To crack that terrible coldness—I try with everything I am to send love into that cold place. Which will never hear me. But nonetheless, I send it.
Meredith Carson: You will not be refused. I love that. That’s characterized your career from the absolute beginning. With Changer and the Changed—there hadn’t been anything like that record before. Nor had there been anything like Olivia Records. Nor had there been anyone like Cris Williamson.
Cris Williamson: No.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: We felt how powerful that was. We were making something like food and medicine. Women would go—
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: —and we’d say, “Well, we’d love to bring it to you.” We just had albums. Then we tried to take that on the road. There were no production companies. You had to make them, because there weren’t any. The men didn’t have a clue about what we were doing, because we made an alternative. We knocked on doors, but what they offered wasn’t what we wanted. We had what they wanted—they just didn’t know it. They didn’t have consciousness. So we took our consciousness and made an alternative world—with festivals and more. And still, there are people who do not know about Changer. That’s okay—because there’s a lot of beauty in the world that people don’t know about either. I’m in very good company.
Meredith Carson: That’s the great unknown. You and Mars. People don’t know Mars, either—and you’re in the same category.
Cris Williamson: You may think you do. And it’s not to be conquered—it’s to be visited, perhaps. Admired.
Meredith Carson: Yeah. Let’s keep in mind—50 years. That was 1975, people!
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: I would bet half the people listening to us this morning weren’t even born yet.
Cris Williamson: And that’s okay.
Meredith Carson: Because this is still so relevant.
Cris Williamson: We kicked down some doors, man.
Meredith Carson: You—
Cris Williamson: —kicked them down big time. Because I didn’t see them. I said, “It’s done.” We made an album, made a company, made distributors, made production companies, child care, opened it up to the Deaf community. So many beautiful things people hadn’t done before—because they needed doing. And we did it.
And largely—a lesbian crew all the way down the line. You know, when in doubt, hand the tool to a lesbian. She’ll get it done. Yeah, it’s just true. When you live outside of things, and someone finally kicks down that door and says, “Come in—you’re absolutely welcome,” that’s what we did.
Changer was in everybody’s home. First thing on the stack of albums on the floor. So if a woman—or a man—came into that house and saw that album, they knew they were in a friendly household.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: And that they were welcome there. As I do these tunes, I think—“Wow. Who wrote these things?”
Meredith Carson: Who was that brave person?
Cris Williamson: She lived. I was beyond myself in a way—which you kind of have to be. If you’re going to grow into it, you’ve got to send yourself out like a mission to Mars. So by the time you get there, you can actually embody the things. It still has power, and deep compassion, and everything we need for now.
Meredith Carson: Just to remind folks—Olivia Records, the business Cris is talking about, was the first woman-owned, woman-focused record company, run mostly by women. Her music has reflected that sensibility for 50 years. You’re still at it. It’s such a great privilege to get to talk to you.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: And to have you here, doing this—because it was a big deal in Boulder. There was a huge community here that welcomed you with open arms, and still does.
Cris Williamson: That’s right. And I’m so grateful.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, we all are. I wanted to ask—when you were talking about taking this on the road—what a monumental thing that was. Would you tell us about the first concert you did when you took Changer on tour?
Cris Williamson: I don’t remember the very first one. We did quite a few in L.A.
Meredith Carson: But for the out-of-town people?
Cris Williamson: We assembled players and traveled in two vans. Drove all night sometimes to get there. Cross-country. There’d be some local production company—like Tomato Productions in St. Louis. We’d pretty much be housed in people’s homes.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, for sure.
Cris Williamson: And they’d want us to sit down for dinner. We’d say, “We just can’t. We have to work.” If they could bring dinner to work, we’d try to grab a bite during setup. Then drive again after the show. It was merciless. But for two hours on stage—you could make something spectacular.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: People would be dizzy with it. You had to haul albums, T-shirts, heavy stuff. Now it can all go through the ether.
Meredith Carson: Exactly. No big boxes.
Cris Williamson: That part is great. But you never got to rest. I was 27, though—I had legs. People said I seemed grumpy. I thought, “You have no idea.” Driving all day, bad food, bad coffee…
Meredith Carson: Nowhere good—not in our country!
Cris Williamson: No. But you had what you had. You did what you could. We were the only carriers of it. We didn’t get airplay. Now—thanks to you, and stations like KGNU, which are under siege—
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: —because you tell the unvarnished truth. And they want to toss out everyone who doesn’t agree. Margaret Atwood couldn’t have been more right.
Meredith Carson: It’s terrifying how right on she’s been.
Cris Williamson: But she gave us a blueprint.
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: There’s a line in a song I wrote—“Black Sin,” about Virginia Woolf. It says: “Disaster films are primers now / for real things that are to come.” When we were doing this, there was no how to. We built the airplane as we were flying it. Unbelievable. But we had imagination and true belief in what we were doing. And necessity is the mother of invention.
We invented something very beautiful. I didn’t do it alone. I had the idea. Everyone else became the record company. I never really joined the record company—I just recorded for them.
Meredith Carson: Uh-huh.
Cris Williamson: I didn’t want to be it.
Meredith Carson: You just wanted to be a musician.
Cris Williamson: Yes. I wanted to be seen as a musician. And I’ve been lucky enough for that to be true. Still is. So I’m happy to come back to Denver—one of my great homes. I was there from ’65 to ’69, studying at the University of Denver. I was in a rock and roll band and also playing solo in clubs like The Embers.
Meredith Carson: What was the name of the rock band?
Cris Williamson: Oh, The Crystal Palace Guard. Six guys and me. So fun. We were a cover band. Hundred bucks a gig for six people.
Meredith Carson: Let’s not go back.
Cris Williamson: So fun, though. We had the birth of rock and roll, great folk music—a great time to be a musician.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely.
Cris Williamson: People wanted to hear what we were doing.
Meredith Carson: Yep. But it was hard work.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. And I tell young artists—they expect to step on stage and have a big audience.
Meredith Carson: The influencers will make it happen, they think.
Cris Williamson: But it can be taken away anytime. Someone else can say so. You have to know you’ve done the work. I was waitressing, cleaning houses—in Denver. I knew how to work.
Meredith Carson: You had to work to make the work happen.
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: Cris, we are so looking forward to this show at Swallow Hill on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: Save some energy for us—and congratulations. 50 dang years!
Cris Williamson: 50 dang years, girlfriend. Still alive. 50 years.
Meredith Carson: We’ll see you then. I’m about to give away a pair of tickets to that concert, but I want to let you go first. We’re so delighted you’re coming.
Cris Williamson: Thank you for your time, and for what you do—for the work you do. Thank you for this great station.
Meredith Carson: You are so very, very welcome. We’ll see you on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thanks, Meredith.
Tools
Meredith Carson: KGNU 1390 Denver. And we have Cris Williamson joining us this morning—a pioneer of women’s music. Dare I say, the godmother of women’s music? I mean… of “Williamson” music, we could call it. So, Cris, you have a concert coming up at Swallow Hill?
Cris Williamson: I do! To celebrate the 50th anniversary of my seminal record Changer and the Changed.
Meredith Carson: I can’t quite get my head around it being the 50th anniversary.
Cris Williamson: Well, you’re telling me! But I’m still able to get my arms around it, which is good. That’s what I’m going to carry into the show—returning to the original way I did Changer, which was just by myself. And then, when we recorded it, I listened to it over a weekend and thought I wanted to add some other instrumentation. But before that, I had just done it the way I always had—carrying it myself.
Yeah, so I’m still of that mindset—to be self-sufficient in that way. So yeah, the first set will be a mix of songs from the last three albums: Motherland, Harbor Street, and Ravens and the Roses. I’m doing songs from those three. Then the second set will be Changer from top to bottom.
Meredith Carson: Fabulous. Ravens and the Roses is the newest release, right?
Cris Williamson: It is, yeah.
Meredith Carson: Tell us a little bit about it—maybe compare and contrast it with your work from 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Well, the songs come quicker, and they’re well-shaped. I know how to do it. The patterns reflect the world in which we’re living. For example, “Broken Idaho” is about a woman who finds herself pregnant and unable to get an abortion. So she’s got to be on the run. It’s very Margaret Atwood.
Meredith Carson: Ay—very reflective of these times.
Cris Williamson: If you’re not mirroring that, then what kind of artist would you be? Because it’s so jagged everywhere, and people are feeling so nervous about what’s going to happen. Nobody really knows. But what we do know is moment to moment—because that’s honestly how life unfolds. It’s not so far into the future that we can even make a plan. It’s kind of a joke to make a plan these days. But we try. For example, I’m planning on being in Denver that evening. You know, we pray all goes well and I’m able to be there.
I mean, we just lost Jill Bull, and those of us who knew and loved her so much are in shock. We are in shock about it.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely. It was so sudden and so terrible—completely unforeseen.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. She was set to be at Swallow Hill the next night. They had a get-together, and people came and talked about her. She had a long history in Denver—just as I do.
Meredith Carson: I know.
Cris Williamson: We were new friends, she and I. But she was so dear. I just loved her. Instantly felt like I’d known her all my life. So clever and kind. That’s really affected me. As I move forward in these days, I’m thinking—how lucky am I? I’m still here.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: Even to talk about 50 years ago—it’s like a blink of an eye to me.
Meredith Carson: Doesn’t it feel that way? Where does it go?
Cris Williamson: Yeah, no—it always does. Time is so fleeting and fast. The older you get, the faster it goes. I think that’s because we’re actually present to witness it. We’re not dreaming of the future—we’re in it. So welcome to the future as it is. It’s every day, unfolding.
Meredith Carson: It really is. And don’t you feel—I mean, I’m about your age—and I feel like I’m exactly the same person I was 50 years ago.
Cris Williamson: Yes.
Meredith Carson: I mean, I hope I’ve learned a few things and smoothed a few rough edges—of which there were, and still are, plenty. But don’t you just feel like it’s the blink of an eye? Because we’re still so much our essential selves.
Cris Williamson: That’s exactly right. And the essence of who we are—if you’re a musician, you embed that. You carry that. I teach songwriting, and what I teach is: it’s got to come from the personal, but it’s also got to approach the universal. Like, how would this be useful in the world? It’s not enough to just say, “I’m so sad.” But if you are sad about the world and its sorrows—about unnecessary wars, made by unnecessary people with hearts cold as ice—well, ice is a good thing, but cold hearts are not.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: To crack that terrible coldness—I try with everything I am to send love into that cold place. Which will never hear me. But nonetheless, I send it.
Meredith Carson: You will not be refused. I love that. That’s characterized your career from the absolute beginning. With Changer and the Changed—there hadn’t been anything like that record before. Nor had there been anything like Olivia Records. Nor had there been anyone like Cris Williamson.
Cris Williamson: No.
Meredith Carson: Yeah.
Cris Williamson: We felt how powerful that was. We were making something like food and medicine. Women would go—
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: —and we’d say, “Well, we’d love to bring it to you.” We just had albums. Then we tried to take that on the road. There were no production companies. You had to make them, because there weren’t any. The men didn’t have a clue about what we were doing, because we made an alternative. We knocked on doors, but what they offered wasn’t what we wanted. We had what they wanted—they just didn’t know it. They didn’t have consciousness. So we took our consciousness and made an alternative world—with festivals and more. And still, there are people who do not know about Changer. That’s okay—because there’s a lot of beauty in the world that people don’t know about either. I’m in very good company.
Meredith Carson: That’s the great unknown. You and Mars. People don’t know Mars, either—and you’re in the same category.
Cris Williamson: You may think you do. And it’s not to be conquered—it’s to be visited, perhaps. Admired.
Meredith Carson: Yeah. Let’s keep in mind—50 years. That was 1975, people!
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: I would bet half the people listening to us this morning weren’t even born yet.
Cris Williamson: And that’s okay.
Meredith Carson: Because this is still so relevant.
Cris Williamson: We kicked down some doors, man.
Meredith Carson: You—
Cris Williamson: —kicked them down big time. Because I didn’t see them. I said, “It’s done.” We made an album, made a company, made distributors, made production companies, child care, opened it up to the Deaf community. So many beautiful things people hadn’t done before—because they needed doing. And we did it.
And largely—a lesbian crew all the way down the line. You know, when in doubt, hand the tool to a lesbian. She’ll get it done. Yeah, it’s just true. When you live outside of things, and someone finally kicks down that door and says, “Come in—you’re absolutely welcome,” that’s what we did.
Changer was in everybody’s home. First thing on the stack of albums on the floor. So if a woman—or a man—came into that house and saw that album, they knew they were in a friendly household.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: And that they were welcome there. As I do these tunes, I think—“Wow. Who wrote these things?”
Meredith Carson: Who was that brave person?
Cris Williamson: She lived. I was beyond myself in a way—which you kind of have to be. If you’re going to grow into it, you’ve got to send yourself out like a mission to Mars. So by the time you get there, you can actually embody the things. It still has power, and deep compassion, and everything we need for now.
Meredith Carson: Just to remind folks—Olivia Records, the business Cris is talking about, was the first woman-owned, woman-focused record company, run mostly by women. Her music has reflected that sensibility for 50 years. You’re still at it. It’s such a great privilege to get to talk to you.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: And to have you here, doing this—because it was a big deal in Boulder. There was a huge community here that welcomed you with open arms, and still does.
Cris Williamson: That’s right. And I’m so grateful.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, we all are. I wanted to ask—when you were talking about taking this on the road—what a monumental thing that was. Would you tell us about the first concert you did when you took Changer on tour?
Cris Williamson: I don’t remember the very first one. We did quite a few in L.A.
Meredith Carson: But for the out-of-town people?
Cris Williamson: We assembled players and traveled in two vans. Drove all night sometimes to get there. Cross-country. There’d be some local production company—like Tomato Productions in St. Louis. We’d pretty much be housed in people’s homes.
Meredith Carson: Oh yeah, for sure.
Cris Williamson: And they’d want us to sit down for dinner. We’d say, “We just can’t. We have to work.” If they could bring dinner to work, we’d try to grab a bite during setup. Then drive again after the show. It was merciless. But for two hours on stage—you could make something spectacular.
Meredith Carson: Mm-hmm.
Cris Williamson: People would be dizzy with it. You had to haul albums, T-shirts, heavy stuff. Now it can all go through the ether.
Meredith Carson: Exactly. No big boxes.
Cris Williamson: That part is great. But you never got to rest. I was 27, though—I had legs. People said I seemed grumpy. I thought, “You have no idea.” Driving all day, bad food, bad coffee…
Meredith Carson: Nowhere good—not in our country!
Cris Williamson: No. But you had what you had. You did what you could. We were the only carriers of it. We didn’t get airplay. Now—thanks to you, and stations like KGNU, which are under siege—
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: —because you tell the unvarnished truth. And they want to toss out everyone who doesn’t agree. Margaret Atwood couldn’t have been more right.
Meredith Carson: It’s terrifying how right on she’s been.
Cris Williamson: But she gave us a blueprint.
Meredith Carson: Yes.
Cris Williamson: There’s a line in a song I wrote—“Black Sin,” about Virginia Woolf. It says: “Disaster films are primers now / for real things that are to come.” When we were doing this, there was no how to. We built the airplane as we were flying it. Unbelievable. But we had imagination and true belief in what we were doing. And necessity is the mother of invention.
We invented something very beautiful. I didn’t do it alone. I had the idea. Everyone else became the record company. I never really joined the record company—I just recorded for them.
Meredith Carson: Uh-huh.
Cris Williamson: I didn’t want to be it.
Meredith Carson: You just wanted to be a musician.
Cris Williamson: Yes. I wanted to be seen as a musician. And I’ve been lucky enough for that to be true. Still is. So I’m happy to come back to Denver—one of my great homes. I was there from ’65 to ’69, studying at the University of Denver. I was in a rock and roll band and also playing solo in clubs like The Embers.
Meredith Carson: What was the name of the rock band?
Cris Williamson: Oh, The Crystal Palace Guard. Six guys and me. So fun. We were a cover band. Hundred bucks a gig for six people.
Meredith Carson: Let’s not go back.
Cris Williamson: So fun, though. We had the birth of rock and roll, great folk music—a great time to be a musician.
Meredith Carson: Absolutely.
Cris Williamson: People wanted to hear what we were doing.
Meredith Carson: Yep. But it was hard work.
Cris Williamson: Yeah. And I tell young artists—they expect to step on stage and have a big audience.
Meredith Carson: The influencers will make it happen, they think.
Cris Williamson: But it can be taken away anytime. Someone else can say so. You have to know you’ve done the work. I was waitressing, cleaning houses—in Denver. I knew how to work.
Meredith Carson: You had to work to make the work happen.
Cris Williamson: That’s right.
Meredith Carson: Cris, we are so looking forward to this show at Swallow Hill on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thank you.
Meredith Carson: Save some energy for us—and congratulations. 50 dang years!
Cris Williamson: 50 dang years, girlfriend. Still alive. 50 years.
Meredith Carson: We’ll see you then. I’m about to give away a pair of tickets to that concert, but I want to let you go first. We’re so delighted you’re coming.
Cris Williamson: Thank you for your time, and for what you do—for the work you do. Thank you for this great station.
Meredith Carson: You are so very, very welcome. We’ll see you on the 18th.
Cris Williamson: Thanks, Meredith.
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